In writing this I will tell you straight up that I likely have several events in incorrect order.  For some it is difficult to place them with precision; I will try to identify these as we go along.  Why write this at all, then?  Well, I have personally found it much easier to grasp details if I can hang them on an approximate visual timeline.  When starting out on this study it can be very overwhelming!  As with all my posts – search the scriptures for yourself to see if it is so.  *ALL* human interpretation is subject to error.  All prophecy will come into clearer focus as it unfolds.

Dispensations

God’s revelation and dealings with humanity can be broadly separated into “ages”.  This is the basis for Dispensational Theology.  It’s not perfect, but it helps us grasp how God has progressively revealed Himself and His redemption plan to humanity.  Here, I will just mention the dispensations that affect our generation:

Age of Grace (~32 AD to present)

Age of Wrath  (~7-10 years)

Millennial Kingdom (1000 years)

Eternity

What I have called the “Age of Wrath” consists of the 70th Week of Daniel and the Day of the Lord, which are distinct but overlapping.  This period of wrath isn’t part of the Age of Grace, nor is it part of the Millennial Kingdom.  It is this relatively short period that is the focus of much Bible Prophecy.  While it is short, it is incredibly significant.

Let’s add some further details.  This backbone is based on a literal scripture interpretation.

End Times Backbone

Pentecost

Church Age Begins At Pentecost – Holy Spirit Comes Down ~ 32 AD (Acts 2:17-18).

Church Age

The church age will be marked by wars, rumors of wars, “desolation” (scattering among the nations) for the Hebrews, general tribulation, and “false christs” (false doctrine in Christianity and false prophets).

Rapture

Church Age Ends At the Rapture – Holy Spirit Goes Up (Acts 2:19-21, 2 Thess 2:7).  We may truly not know the “day or hour” of the rapture.

God’s Judgments Start

After the rapture of the church, the effects of Seals 1-7 will be seen and the Trumpet Judgements will start.

Antichrist Revealed

The antichrist will be revealed at some point AFTER the rapture of the church.

Day of the Lord Begins

The Day of the Lord likely begins after a future Gog/Magog war (Ezekiel 38-39) when God Rises to Protect Israel.  The duration of the Day of the Lord is not given; however, it appears to be at least 7 years long based on “7 year burning of weapons” following the Gog/Magog war.  Alternately, the official Day of the Lord may not begin until later – what is clear, is that it starts at some point after the antichrist is somehow revealed (2 Thessalonians 2).  God’s wrath is contained within the Day of the Lord, which church age believers are promised to be spared from.

70th Week of Daniel Begins – 7 yr Covenant

The 70th Week of Daniel begins immediately upon the confirming of a 7 year covenant with Israel and “many” (duration 1260+1260 days).  The exact nature of this covenant is unknown.  Traditional interpretation states it is a peace treaty between the antichrist, Israel, and surrounding nations.  It’s also possible that it is GOD who re-confirms His Abrahamic covenant with Israel through sparing her from certain destruction at the Gog/Magog war of Ezekiel 38-39.  The 70th week of Daniel will overlap the Day of the Lord to some extent, or even possibly in entirety.

Abomination of Desolation – Midpoint of 7 yr Covenant

Abomination of Desolation = Covenant Confirmation + 1260 Days.   Regardless of who confirms the covenant with Israel, someone (the antichrist, false messiah) will declare to be “god” at this point and seat himself in the Jewish Temple.  He, or his false prophet, will set up some type of worship system for him in the temple.  This is an abomination to God.

Time of “Greatest Tribulation”

The time of greatest tribulation mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24, and mentioned in Daniel 9 and Revelation 12, is when the saints are handed over into the antichrist beast’s hand.  This is sometimes referred to as “Satan’s wrath”.  It begins at the Abomination of Desolation and ends at the Second Coming of Christ.  People near Jerusalem are welcome to flee to the wilderness (Petra?) to avoid this, but they must leave immediately.

Second Coming of Christ – Feast of Atonement (Yom Kippur)

Abomination of Desolation + 1260 Days = Second Coming of Christ and the Battle of Armageddon.  This fulfills the Feast of Atonement (Yom Kippur) – Judgment Day.

Sheep and Goats Judgment

This judgment of the living follows the Battle of Armageddon.  The Antichrist (beast) and his False Prophet become the first inhabitants of the Lake of Fire.  The living are sorted into “sheep” (true believers) and “goats” (unbelievers).  The “sheep” are ushered into the Millennial Kingdom, and the “goats” are banished to hell / lake of fire.  This might possibly take 30 days (1260 + 30 = 1290).

Millennial Kingdom – Feast of Tabernacles

The Millennial Kingdom, “God With Us”, fulfills the Feast of Tabernacles (Booths).  God will dwell among His people, and rule them “with an iron rod” for a period of 1000 years.

Millennial Temple Dedication – Hanukkah?

The millennial temple may be dedicated on Hanukkah, the feast of lights.  This feast  happens to fall 75 days after Yom Kippur.  Note 1260 + 75 days = 1335.  Hanukkah is the Temple Re-dedication holiday for Israel, and marks when the oil in the Menorah miraculously lasted for 8 days instead of 1 day.  Hanukkah is not one God’s appointed times, but it is a significant historical celebration for Israel that Jesus participated in when He was here the first time.

Final Rebellion

At the end of 1000 years, Satan will be released for a “little season” to gather humanity in a final rebellion against God.

Great White Throne Judgment

This is the final resurrection of the dead.  Believers from the millennial kingdom, and unbelievers of all ages, will be judged.  Those who are washed clean in the blood of the Lamb go to heaven; those who attempt to pay for their own debts will find that it is impossible, and thus will be sent to the Lake of Fire.

Eternity

God makes all things new.

 

We now have a structure on which to hang further details.  Here is where I will add in my speculations and possible dates for the “Age of Wrath” that will likely affect most people alive today.  This sequence is based upon my best and current understanding, but will likely be wrong on some points.

God’s Mosaic – Possible Sequence of End Times Events

Pentecost ~32AD

Church Age

Beginning of Birth Pains

It appears from the sequence of Seal 6, which is a detailed description of the “beginning of birth pains” Jesus referred to in His mount of olives discourse, that the church might be here as the time of trouble just BEGINS to be unleashed upon the earth.  This might include:

• nation rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (WW3)
• earthquakes
• volcanic eruptions
• tsunamis
• meteor showers / asteroid impacts
• famines
• pestilences (infectious disease outbreaks?)
• “terrors and great signs from heaven”

Rapture

• Possible “high watch” days include Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Yom Kippur, and coincidence with the Ezekiel 38-39 war.  Or, possibly day and hour are truly unknown (imminent).
• The Feast of Trumpets may have dual fulfillment with the rapture of the church, and the Mount of Olives cleaving for the Elect Remnant of Israel ~7 or 10 years later.
• Restrainer (Holy Spirit sealing within the true Church) is removed from the earth (2 Thessalonians 2)
• Seal 1 – Unrestrained antichrist – the lawless one is freed to rise to political and spiritual power (2 Thessalonians 2, Revelation 6).  How quickly he arises is unspecified, but within about 3.5 years he will declare himself to be “god”.
• Seal 2 – Unrestrained Violence and/or War – Possibly WW3, Ezekiel 38-39, and the wars the antichrist fights as he rises to power (described in Daniel 7&11).  Possibly includes the violence as people fight for survival.  This violence begins now but continues until the Second Coming of Christ.
• Seal 3 – Unrestrained Economic Control and Famine will occur  as a result of the events that are being unleashed.  The ultimate economic control will be seen in the “Mark of the Beast” system at some point after the antichrist declares himself to be “god”.
• Seal 4 – A result of Seals 1-3 – Death via sword, famine, infectious disease (pestilence), wild beasts.  Death is followed by Hades (hell); as such, it does not affect Believers in Jesus Christ.  The gates of hell do not prevail against the church (Matthew 16:18).  A fourth of the earth will be killed, beginning at the opening of the seals and extending for some unspecified period of time.  I would assume a short time, based on the fact that many people WILL become true believers shortly after the rapture when they realize that the Bible is true.
• Seal 5 – The dead in Christ arise (resurrection and rapture) and enter their rest (Isaiah 26).  Meanwhile, the number of martyrs will continue to collect again until the full number of martyrs is complete.  Unrestrained antichrist religion will result in martyrs for the true Christ.  The martyrs’ blood will not be completely avenged until later, when the 7th bowl judgment is poured out.
• Seal 6 – great earthquake, which moves every mountain and island; sun is blackened; moon turns blood red.  I believe the earthquake causes volcanic eruptions as a chain reaction, and the smoke and ash in the air darken the sun and make the moon appear blood red worldwide.  In Joel 2 we are told this occurs BEFORE the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord begins.  I believe this earthquake is likely CAUSED by the nuclear transformation of the physical into the eternal (resurrection/rapture event).
• Seal 6 – sky vanishes like a scroll being rolled up – I believe this is the third heaven opening up to allow the entrance of billions of resurrected and live believers to enter heaven.  This may come after the great earthquake.
• Seal 6 – the left behind, every human left from rich to poor, hide among the caves and rocks to attempt to hide from the wrath of him who is seated on the throne and from the Lamb, “for the great day of their wrath has come”.
• Seal 6 – stars of the sky fall to earth – I believe this parallels Revelation 12:9 – “And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.”  This may be the basis for an “excuse” of what happened to believers, and may involve “aliens” (fallen angelic deception).  Alternatively, this could be asteroids/meteors, or the fallout from a near-collision with “Planet X / Nibiru”.
• Seal 6 – 144,000 Israelites are sealed on their foreheads, to accomplish God’s purpose on earth.  They will become the firstfruits unto God of the remnant of Israel that will be saved.  I believe these are literal bloodline Israelites, from the 12 tribes as detailed in Revelation 7.
• Seal 6 – Believers from all nations, tribes, tongues, and peoples are seen in heaven worshiping the Lamb and the One on the throne.  These are the raptured and resurrected saints.

Pause

• Seal 7 – Silence in heaven for “about half an hour”, then it appears that the Yom Kippur Ceremony takes place in heaven.  This half hour of silence may represent the “10 Days of Awe” between the Feast of Trumpets and Yom Kippur, it may be a literal half hour, or it may represent some other sum of time.
• 2 Witnesses appear.  They are expected BEFORE the Day of the Lord.  Jews are expecting Elijah; whether this will truly be Elijah or someone “in the spirit of Elijah” I am unsure.  The other person could be Moses, or Enoch.  Or it could be Zerubbabel and Joshua… Whoever they are will be clear because they are granted authority to do certain signs and wonders, and they will be clothed in sackcloth.  Their ministry lasts 3.5 years (1260 days).

NOTE: There is possibly a TIME GAP between the rapture of the church and the confirming of the covenant with Israel that begins the 7 year 70th Week of Daniel.  This time gap may be approximately 2 months OR approximately 3 years and 2 months in duration OR some other possibility?  Or, there may not be a gap at all.

God’s Judgments Start – Yom Kippur?

After the rapture of the church, the effects of Seals 1-7 will be seen and the Trumpet Judgements will start.  These may be coincident with the antichrist being revealed and the Day of the Lord beginning.

Antichrist Revealed

The antichrist will be revealed at some point AFTER the rapture of the church.  Whether this is through him fighting and winning wars for Israel, through confirming a peace treaty with Israel, or at the time of his apparent death and resurrection, it is not entirely clear.

Day of the Lord Begins ~ Yom Kippur?

• Yom Kippur represents “Judgment Day”, and seems a fitting start to God’s Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.  I believe Yom Kippur may have dual fulfillment, marking both the START and END of the Day of the Lord.
• After the ~ 1/2 hour of silence in heaven, there is thunders, rumblings, lightning, and an earthquake.
• The effects of the Seals opening continue on.
• Trumpet 1:  Hail and fire, mixed with blood.  1/3 of earth and trees burned up.  All green grass burned up.  This description is paralleled as one of the fallouts of the Ezekiel 38-39 war, so the Gog/Magog war may be at this time.  Or this judgment may occur twice.
• Trumpet 2:  Something like a mountain burning with fire (asteroid?) thrown into the sea.  1/3 sea becomes blood, 1/3 sea creatures die, 1/3 ships destroyed.
• Trumpet 3:  Great star (asteroid?) falls from heaven, blazing like a torch.  1/3 rivers and springs are poisoned by “wormwood”.  Many people die (from either poisoning or thirst).
• Trumpet 4:  1/3 of the light from the sun, moon, and stars are dimmed.  1/3 of day is dark, 1/3 of night is dark.
• The 1/3 judgments seem to reflect back upon the 1/3 of angels who fall with satan (Revelation 12).  I believe these are cast down to earth at or right after the time of the rapture; and thus, these 1/3 judgments would seemingly reflect, or announce, their arrival on earth.
• Are trumpets 1-4 related to “Planet 7X” “Nibiru” “Planet X”, if such a thing really exists?  If it is indeed a planetary system, then God created it for a specific time and purpose.
• I am guessing Trumpets 1-4 occur close together, to form somewhat of a unit of judgment, near the beginning of the Day of the Lord, perhaps before the 70th Week of Daniel starts.

70th Week of Daniel Begins – 7 yr Covenant Confirmed With Israel and the Many

• This is the most speculative estimation for dates.  However, since I believe Jesus’ Second Coming will be on Yom Kippur, and I believe the 70th Week of Daniel lasts 2520 days, then counting back from Yom Kippur places the covenant confirmation around November 3.5 years earlier.  If Yom Kippur 2028 is the Second Coming, the covenant signing would occur around November 6, 2021.  It’s hard for me to imagine it taking that long, though, with the rate things are happening in Israel these days.
• Trumpet 5 – Woe 1 – Satan is given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.  A demon army comes up like locusts/scorpions to “sting” humans for 5 months.  The pain from this will be unbearable and people will seek death, but death will not be allowed.  The sealed 144,000 Israelites will be untouchable from the “stings”.
• Trumpet 6 – Woe 2- 200,000,000 demon army kills 1/3 of humanity via fire, smoke, and sulfur. These may be the fallen “watchers” (fallen angelic beings) mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6, who are being kept in chains until the “judgment of the great day”.  This trumpet judgment begins at some point after the Trumpet 5 locust demon army, and ends after God’s 2 witnesses are killed and resurrected.  The “abomination of desolation” likely occurs while the 2 witnesses are laying dead in the streets of Jerusalem.

Beast Killed and Resurrected (April?)

It is insinuated in several passages that the antichrist/beast is killed via a mortal head wound and then is resurrected from the dead.  The timing of this is likely shortly before the antichrist declares himself to be “god”, because it probably is one of the reasons that he seemingly CAN claim to be god.  This is an attempt to parallel Jesus’ death and resurrection, and thus it seems very possible that it might occur on Passover/Firstfruits.  The antichrist is resurrected from the dead by the power of God, when Satan is allowed to take possession of his body.

Abomination of Desolation – Midpoint of 7 yr Covenant (April/May?)

The Abomination of Desolation occurs at the Covenant Confirmation + 1260 Days.  Someone (the antichrist/beast) will declare to be “god” at this point and seat himself in the Jewish Temple.  This is an abomination to God.  An image will be set up in the Temple for people to give worship and sacrifices to the antichrist, which is also an abomination.  Old Testament style sacrifices will cease.  This may be an attempt to copy Jesus, who was the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrificial system.

2 Witnesses Killed – Resurrected After 3.5 Days (end-April/early-May?)

Likely one of the first things that the newly resurrected antichrist will do is kill God’s 2 witnesses.  He’s probably been trying to kill them all along, but until now they’ve been untouchable.  The 2 Witnesses will lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3.5 days, then be resurrected from the dead and called up into heaven.  It is at this point we also see the 144,000 previously sealed Israelites on the heavenly Mount Zion.  So it is possible that the antichrist turns on these along with the 2 witnesses when he proclaims himself to be “god”.  This would make sense, since they will be proclaiming the true Christ as the only way to the One True God.

Time of “Greatest Tribulation” – 1260 days

The time of greatest tribulation mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24, and mentioned in Daniel 9 and Revelation 12, is when the saints are handed over into the beast’s hand.  Satan is allowed 1260 days to rule over the kingdoms of the world.  This is sometimes referred to as the time of “Satan’s wrath”, when he pours out all his hatred of Christ onto Christ’s followers.  Martyrdom will be extremely common.  The Time of Greatest Tribulation begins at the Abomination of Desolation and ends at the Second Coming of Christ.  People near Jerusalem are welcome to flee to the wilderness (Petra?) to avoid this, but they must leave immediately after the antichrist declares himself to be “god”.  Note that many will be following the antichrist and willingly worshiping him, and these will not be persecuted…yet.  The time of Greatest Tribulation, the Antichrist’s rule, lasts 3.5 years.

Mark of the Beast

At some point after his rule is established, the antichrist will institute his “mark of the beast” system.  This will show allegiance to him and will be required for all economic transactions.  An angel from God will warn the earth not to take this mark, as it will render whoever accepts the mark to be “unsaveable”.  As to what it could be, it may affect human DNA somehow.  Jesus died to save humanity alone – those who bear His image.  Our very humanity is defined by our DNA.  This is speculative, but I am guessing that it will come near the very end of the beast’s rule based on the timing of the Feasts of God and the messages of the 3 Messenger Angels.

Mount Olives Split – Feast of Trumpets?

Trumpet 7 is also Woe 3  and includes flashes of lightning, rumblings, thunders, an earthquake, and heavy hail.  I am speculating that the Feast of Trumpets is when Trumpet 7 is blown.  Trumpet 7 releases the 7 Bowls of Wrath.   For this reason, I imagine it is blown near the end of the antichrist’s rule.  Zechariah 14 tells us that before Jesus comes with His holy ones, the Mount of Olives will be split into two – from East to West – to allow the Hebrews to flee before a great (the greatest ever) earthquake occurs.  I’m postulating that the earthquake of Trumpet 7 is the one that splits the Mount of Olives.  I believe this is Jesus calling to the elect remnant in Jerusalem, “Come Out of Her, My People!”, right before the destruction of Mystery Babylon (end-times city of Jerusalem).  Anyone who obeys would be spared from God’s final outpouring of wrath.  It seems that half the city goes out into exile to obey.   Perhaps this is because the messenger angel #1 just flew over proclaiming the eternal gospel?

This would seem to be a second fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets, if the rapture occurs on the Feast of Trumpets as well.  Another chance for the elect (this time Israel) to escape wrath.  Or, is it possible that the earthquake that divides Mount Olives to provide an escape route for the remnant of Israel will occur 3 days after the darkness of Bowl 5?  This would parallel God’s deliverance of Israel after 3 days of darkness at the first exodus.

Messenger Angels (Days of Awe?)

Once the 2 witnesses and the 144,000 sealed Israelites have been killed/taken up into heaven, God will use 3 messenger angels to communicate with humanity.  These will deliver their messages at some point after the abomination of desolation, but before the bowls of wrath.  Because the second angel announces the imminent fall of Mystery Babylon, which is right near the Second Coming of Jesus, the timeline of the Messenger Angels is likely near the end of the 1260 day beast-rule.  I’m suspecting the messenger angels (3) plus the bowls of wrath (7) might fulfill the 10 Days of Awe between the Feast of Trumpets and Yom Kippur.

1. Eternal Gospel Proclaimed to Every Nation and Tribe and Language and People
2. Fallen, Fallen is Babylon the Great (Mystery Babylon)
3. Warning Not to Worship the Beast or Its Image or Take Its Mark Under Penalty of Wrath and Lake of Fire

Destruction of Mystery Babylon

At some point near the Second Coming of Christ, Mystery Babylon (end-times city of Jerusalem) is destroyed.  This is where the antichrist and his confederacy turns on her.  It must occur after the Mount of Olives splits, to allow the believing remnant to flee.  It occurs with enough time for the kings of the earth (not included in the beast’s confederacy) to mourn for their loss of income at her destruction.  Does it possibly happen on the second Day of Awe when the angel announces “Fallen, Fallen is Babylon the Great”?

Bowls of Wrath  (Days of Awe?)

The Bowls of Wrath will begin at some point after the Mark of the Beast system is instituted.

• Bowl 1 – Harmful and painful sores occur on people who have taken the mark of the beast.
• Bowl 2 – Entire sea turns to blood, all sea creatures die.
• Bowl 3 – All rivers and springs become blood.
• Bowl 4 – Sun scorches people with fierce heat.
• Bowl 5 – Kingdom of the beast is plunged into darkness.  People in anguish over their pain and sores (continuing from Bowl 1).
• Bowl 6 – The Euphrates river is dried up to allow humanity to assemble for the battle at “Armageddon” (Jerusalem?).  The antichrist and false prophet send three deceiving frog-like spirits go out into all the world to collect the people.

Second Coming of Christ + Battle of Armageddon = Feast of Atonement (Yom Kippur)

Bowl 7 wraps up the destruction of Mystery Babylon and the Battle of Armageddon.  It includes lighting, rumblings, thunder, the greatest earthquake of all time, and 100 pound hailstones.  Abomination of Desolation + 1260 Days = Second Coming of Christ and the Battle of Armageddon.  This fulfills the Feast of Atonement (Yom Kippur) – Judgment Day.  Zechariah 14 describes this as “a unique day, with no light, cold, or frost….neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light” (v6-7).  I speculate that this is the sign of the Son of Man – when Jesus appears in heaven with eyes blazing, mounted on a white horse and flanked by His holy ones (Revelation 19).  Jesus kills the armies of the beast via what seems like some type of nuclear event.  Flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder are followed by the greatest earthquake ever.  Jerusalem is split into 3 parts, all the cities in the nations fall, all islands disappear, and all mountains are flattened.  100 pound hailstones fall from the sky.  Jerusalem is elevated onto a broad plain.

Gathering of the Elect

Angels gather the remnant of Israel.  All bloodline Hebrews who have survived the 70th Week of Daniel (1/3) are now believers and will be ushered into the Millennial Kingdom.  “And so all Israel will be saved”.

Sheep and Goats Judgment

The Gentile Sheep and Goats judgment follows the Battle of Armageddon.  The Antichrist (beast) and False Prophet become the first inhabitants of the Lake of Fire.  All remaining living humans are sorted into “sheep” (true believers) and “goats” (unbelievers).  The “sheep” are ushered into the Millennial Kingdom, and the “goats” are banished to hell / lake of fire.

Satan and Demons Banished

Satan and his demonic horde are banished to the abyss for the duration of the Millennial Kingdom.

Resurrection of Tribulation Martyrs

Tribulation martyrs that died in Christ will be resurrected and reign with Christ during the Millennial Kingdom.  I am not sure if this includes all the tribulation saints or just those who were martyred.

Millennial Kingdom – Feast of Tabernacles

The Millennial Kingdom is the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles, and as such would be expected to begin on this feast date.  While the feast lasts 7 days, the Millennial Kingdom will last 1000 years.  7 is the number of completion, or perfection.

Temple Re-dedication – Hanukkah

The Temple may be cleansed and restored, or at least the sacrificial altar, in time to be dedicated on Hanukkah, which happens to fall at 1260 + 75 days = 1335.  Hanukkah is the Temple Re-dedication holiday for Israel, and marks when the oil in the Menorah miraculously lasted for 8 days instead of 1 day.  Hanukkah is not one God’s appointed times, but it is a significant holiday for Israel.

Final Rebellion

At the end of 1000 years, Satan will be released for a little season to gather humanity in a final rebellion against God.  This will complete humanity’s 7000 year story.

Great White Throne Judgment

This is the final resurrection of the dead.  Believers from the millennial kingdom, and unbelievers of all ages, will be judged.  Those who are washed clean in the blood of the Lamb go to heaven; those who attempt to pay for their own debts go to the Lake of Fire.

Eternity

God makes all things new.

__________________________________________

Everything mentioned in this post is discussed in further detail on this site.  Please see the  Main Menu – God’s Mosaic Prophecy Model.

Are you CERTAIN of your Salvation, beyond a shadow of a doubt?  Do you KNOW that no matter when the rapture occurs, you will be counted worthy to escape?  If not, please read What Must I do to Be Saved.

The Bible is infallible.  I am not.  I am merely challenging traditional models and testing them against Scripture.  I believe that traditional pretribulation teachings provide a solid backbone upon which to lay the musculature of details, some of which I think might need to be adjusted slightly.  I encourage you to consider my thoughts as you also examine the scriptures to see if these things are so!